DUST Search - Gallente and Caldari assaults get crap for bonuses

Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote:

MINA Longstrike wrote:

Nitrobeacon wrote:

You say that bonuses shouldn't go towards killing potential, but then again minmatar assaults get more dpm.

Damage per minute isn't the metric you're looking to measure in fights that last seconds. There is a big, big difference between damage per minute and damage per second and there is a huge, massive, big distinct difference between a rate of fire buff and a maximum magazine size buff.

Person with RoF buff vs Person without RoF Buff = RoF is 'favored' to win, as they do more damage in shorter amounts of time
Person with magazine size buff vs person without magazine size buff = no clear winner as they both do the same damage per second (one just has a longer maximum engagement time).

Given similar amounts of HP and relatively similar accuracy, I have consistently seen proto amarr commando's beat proto amarr assaults in laser / scrambler fights, even though the assault is 'technically' capable of doing more damage over time, the commando wins because he does his damage *faster*. People should choose the assault because of handling, slot layout and general weapon functionality, not because 'ehrmahgerd nothing can compete with my damage thats' 30+% higher than anyone who isn't an assault!"

Nitrobeacon wrote:

You use a lot of words, but I like these ideas.

So you're a poor judge of quality and objective balance.

no amar commando is killing my assault with lr. They would have to be more accurate than me initially ..not gonna happen. Ps while the amar aassault bonus only effects scr fire time n not damage same is not true for lr..As damage increases over time the last 20 rounds the amar assault allows lr to fire deal more damage than is achievable on any other suit. So in a a way amar assault DOES buff lr damage


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MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1172	Posted - 2014.08.30 10:59:00 - [1] - Quote Those bonuses are way, way too powerful. Assault bonuses should be about performance (ie 'I want my gun to handle better'), not DPS (ie 'No other suit can compete with how well I kill things'). The Amarr and Minmatar bonuses don't make someone 'more killy', they just increase the length that they can engage someone for. If you want all the damage use a commando suit, as they are the best for damage. If you were to add a 5% kick reduction to the current reload caldari bonus, I would be in love with it as it improves how my weapons perform. As for the gallente bonus(es), I feel that they're quite good as they are right now - but they're not 'valued' simply because in order for a bonus like that to be valued, it has to be practically overpowered before it's noticed, the only reason Min and Amarr bonuses are valued so much is that nothing else provides those benefits. What the gallente bonus does is allows someone to twitch and strafe about while still being insanely accurate with an assault rifle. Rate of fire and Range are both psychotically powerful bonuses (especially 25%, jesus christ) as RoF drastically shortens the length of any engagement, and range increases ones ability to project DPS over range. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1172	Posted - 2014.08.30 11:21:00 - [2] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: those bonuses are actually rather good more so due to proposed dps boost to AR in delta couple with MOAR ROF = GODLIKE DPS(at close/mid range) No, they really aren't. Think about the bigger picture. If an amarr assault and a non amarr assault with similar HP (or a min assault & a non min assault with similar hp) and a scrambler rifle (or combat rifle in Minnie's case a combat rifle) run into each other, the amarr assault doesn't win because he does 25% more dps he either wins because he was a better shot and the opponent was a worse shot, or because his skill allowed him to keep firing for longer - You cannot immediately tell who is going to win in those engagements. If the gallente assault with the 25% RoF buff ran into a non gallente assault with similar hp and they both had AR's, the gallente assault would always be the 'favorite to win the fight' because instead of doing the same lets say 440 dps that his opponent does, he does 550. It is demonstrably unbalanced and it is unobjectively not good. With the current bonus the gallente assault may win because he's able to strafe around and fire more accurately while doing so, but he is never the automatic favorite to win every fight with the AR. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1172	Posted - 2014.08.30 11:49:00 - [3] - Quote Nitrobeacon wrote: You say that bonuses shouldn't go towards killing potential, but then again minmatar assaults get more dpm. Damage per minute isn't the metric you're looking to measure in fights that last seconds. There is a big, big difference between damage per minute and damage per second and there is a huge, massive, big distinct difference between a rate of fire buff and a maximum magazine size buff. Person with RoF buff vs Person without RoF Buff = RoF is 'favored' to win, as they do more damage in shorter amounts of time Person with magazine size buff vs person without magazine size buff = no clear winner as they both do the same damage per second (one just has a longer maximum engagement time). Given similar amounts of HP and relatively similar accuracy, I have consistently seen proto amarr commando's beat proto amarr assaults in laser / scrambler fights, even though the assault is 'technically' capable of doing more damage over time, the commando wins because he does his damage faster. People should choose the assault because of handling, slot layout and general weapon functionality, not because 'ehrmahgerd nothing can compete with my damage thats' 30+% higher than anyone who isn't an assault!" Nitrobeacon wrote: You use a lot of words, but I like these ideas. So you're a poor judge of quality and objective balance. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1178	Posted - 2014.08.30 14:33:00 - [4] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Nitrobeacon wrote: You say that bonuses shouldn't go towards killing potential, but then again minmatar assaults get more dpm. Damage per minute isn't the metric you're looking to measure in fights that last seconds. There is a big, big difference between damage per minute and damage per second and there is a huge, massive, big distinct difference between a rate of fire buff and a maximum magazine size buff. Person with RoF buff vs Person without RoF Buff = RoF is 'favored' to win, as they do more damage in shorter amounts of time Person with magazine size buff vs person without magazine size buff = no clear winner as they both do the same damage per second (one just has a longer maximum engagement time). Given similar amounts of HP and relatively similar accuracy, I have consistently seen proto amarr commando's beat proto amarr assaults in laser / scrambler fights, even though the assault is 'technically' capable of doing more damage over time, the commando wins because he does his damage faster. People should choose the assault because of handling, slot layout and general weapon functionality, not because 'ehrmahgerd nothing can compete with my damage thats' 30+% higher than anyone who isn't an assault!" Nitrobeacon wrote: You use a lot of words, but I like these ideas. So you're a poor judge of quality and objective balance. no amar commando is killing my assault with lr. They would have to be more accurate than me initially ..not gonna happen. Ps while the amar aassault bonus only effects scr fire time n not damage same is not true for lr..As damage increases over time the last 20 rounds the amar assault allows lr to fire deal more damage than is achievable on any other suit. So in a a way amar assault DOES buff lr damage Honestly Mortedeamor, go away, the adults are talking about numbers, not egos. I don't want to listen to you conflate the two as it does nothing to actually further the discussion, it instead riddles it with logical fallacies. Given similar values of HP (quite easy to do) the same weapon and similar values for accuracy, the commando is favored to win a fight versus the assault simply because their damage per second is higher - this is a fact. I'm well aware of what the assault suit does for the laser rifle and that Is an outlier, there is not a single other instance in the game like it. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1178	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:39:00 - [5] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Okay so we want less kick for caldari, how about reduction to spool up time as well? maybe reduce it by 15% per level, i mean the goal of each racial bonus is to strenghen their weaknesses, amarr makes the scr lose it's heat issues, caldari should make the spool up better, no? Spool up isn't a weakness, and if you start messing with 'charge times' you could end up with a terribly overpowered charge rifle. Kick and Reload to light rails is more than good enough. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.